Epoxy Repairs vs. Dutchman vs. Whole Part Replacement

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sschoberg
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Epoxy Repairs vs. Dutchman vs. Whole Part Replacement

Postby sschoberg » June 12th, 2011, 3:41 pm

Epoxies are great and seem to do wonders when restoring rotted or broken wood parts. However, should they be relied on for every repair being made to a sash?

At what point (regarding sash condition) should we be choosing replacing pieces of the sash instead of repairing, glueing and filling in with Epoxies?

We assess sash condition with these points in mind and are doing more and more dutchmans rather than then just simply filling in with epoxies. It would be great when creating a bid on window restoration to know that the specification from the architect will address this issue, so all other contractors will be pricing and creating similar qualities of work.

johnleeke
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Re: Epoxy Repairs versus Dutchman repairs

Postby johnleeke » June 13th, 2011, 3:25 pm

Steve:

>>At what point (regarding sash condition) should we be choosing replacing pieces of the sash instead of repairing, gluing and filling in with Epoxies?<<

Without any guidance from the owner or architect the discussion to repair or renew (take out the old part and put in a new part) I've often made base on economics, whichever will cost least.

On some projects there is strong guidance. For example, to save as much authentic material as possible, without regard to cost. Or, always make the lowest cost choice, without regard to saving authentic material. Or, do whatever will give the lowest ongoing maintenance cost.

Some architects try to specify this by saying, "if more than 25% of the part is damaged, then renew it by taking out the old part and putting in a new part."

Why are you shifting away from wood-epoxy repairs to dutchmen?
John
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sschoberg
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Re: Epoxy Repairs versus Dutchman repairs

Postby sschoberg » June 14th, 2011, 8:41 am

I think mostly cus the a dutchman repair will last much longer than epoxy? Question because I have no results past about 10 year to prove otherwise. However we have seen some much older epoxy repairs that have not held up.

I have seen no architect specification getting this deep into what they want. (This is one of my motivations to see well defined restoration standards for windows)

As well as epoxy works for us it just seems more appropriate to do the dutchman repair. It may also be that as we have gained more experience repairing sashes we've educated ourselves to a more advanced look wood repairs. A good repair with wood will be more durable than the same repair with epoxy. Especially on wearing surfaces.

johnleeke
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Re: Epoxy Repairs versus Dutchman repairs

Postby johnleeke » June 14th, 2011, 9:36 am

So, a part of the Standards could be to use a wood dutchmen at a wearing surface--that's a good idea.

For example, on a repair of a side margin of a sash that rubs on a stop

Wood-epoxy repair: not recommended at critical wearing surfaces

Wood dutchman: recommended at critical wearing surfaces
John
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Standards Editor

http://www.HistoricHomeWorks.com

oculus
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Re: Epoxy Repairs versus Dutchman repairs

Postby oculus » June 17th, 2011, 10:29 am

I am faced with this decision a lot. It often depends upon the structure I am working on. If the deteriorated piece must be saved then I save it. I generally like the dutchman patches more than the epoxies. I often worry about the longevity of an epoxy patch, especially with all the rain we get out here in Oregon. I often work with a state preservation architect on my state park projects. Here are her repair criteria for a recent window project:

-If the wood deterioration is greater than half the total dimension of the member, then replace the entire member.
-If the depth of the deterioration is greater than 1/4", but less than half the depth of the member and less than half of the entire member then install a Dutchman repair.
-If the depth of the deterioration is greater than 1/8" but less than 1/4", consolidate and then fill with epoxy patch compound. Large nail holes are included here.
-If the depth of the deterioration is less than 1/8", consolidate and then fill with epoxy patch compound. Small nail holes are included here.
-Minor scratches and gouges are to be left as is.

Often the longevity of the patch, either dutchman or epoxy comes down to the person putting it in. If they make an ill-fitting dutchman or don't mix the epoxy right then the patch will probably fail quite quick.
Amy Harrington McAuley
Oculus Fine Carpentry, Inc.
http://oculuswindow.blogspot.com/
oculuswindow@gmail.com

"Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work"-T.Edison

David Ottinger
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Re: Epoxy Repairs versus Dutchman repairs

Postby David Ottinger » June 18th, 2011, 8:15 am

I am wondering about experiences with the longevity of epoxy repairs vs. in-kind wood repairs of windows and woodwork that have been repaired within the last 20-30 years. Any experience with moisture trapped in moisture permeable wood adjacent to the epoxy with unintended consequences? Also, in addition to maintaining the grain direction with wood repairs, the preferred repair wood selection: similar species, old growth, heartwood, etc? Is there a recommended easy to use format or system for documenting the sash and repairs, glass within the sash (which typically is uniquely scribed and fit in eighteenth century N.E. sash) and some sort of simple report accompanying the project with the materials (especially paint) used and a long-term maintenance plan?

johnleeke
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Re: Epoxy Repairs versus Dutchman repairs

Postby johnleeke » July 5th, 2011, 6:25 am

David,

I have started a discussion especially for work documentation, with a quote from your message above. Amy and I have commented on it. See it here:

viewtopic.php?f=10&t=65
John
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johnleeke
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Re: Epoxy Repairs versus Dutchman repairs

Postby johnleeke » December 16th, 2011, 8:19 pm

Amy writes:

I often work with a state preservation architect on my state park projects. Here are her repair criteria for a recent window project...


Who is the architect? I'd like to get her in on this discussion, to tell us more about those criteria. They look pretty good to me and they are just exactly what these Standards may need.

How do you like working within these criteria? Do they apply well to your skill set and actual field conditions?
John
Standards Co-Founder
Standards Editor

http://www.HistoricHomeWorks.com

johnleeke
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Re: Epoxy Repairs vs. Dutchman vs. Whole Part Replacement

Postby johnleeke » December 24th, 2011, 12:29 pm

Steve, I have split off the messages about certification & qualification and set up this new discussion:

viewtopic.php?f=10&t=176&p=405#p405
John
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Standards Editor

http://www.HistoricHomeWorks.com


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