Wood Storm, weatherstrip (final)

Controlling the movement of air and heat through windows.
oculus
Posts: 66
Joined: May 18th, 2011, 12:15 am

Re: Wood Storm Window, with weatherstrip (draft)

Postby oculus » March 19th, 2012, 12:04 pm

Because of my own experience I tend to agree with Steve.
I have storms on my daughter's room and they are way too tight. I initially put bulb weatherstripping around the sides and top but they immediately fogged up with condensation and never cleared so I removed the bulb and put in some weep holes along the bottom which helped a bit but after this season I am going to cut some larger holes in the bottom rail.
I think whether or not to use bulb on storms will depend a lot upon the climate and location of the project.
Amy Harrington McAuley
Oculus Fine Carpentry, Inc.
http://oculuswindow.blogspot.com/
oculuswindow@gmail.com

"Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work"-T.Edison

johnleeke
Posts: 375
Joined: April 13th, 2011, 7:34 pm
Full Name: John Leeke
Location: Portland
Organization: Historic HomeWorks
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Location: Portland, Maine
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Re: Wood Storm Window, with weatherstrip (draft)

Postby johnleeke » March 19th, 2012, 1:25 pm

Amy, there in Portland, OR, are you part of the "rain forest" climate? What is the official description of the climate in Portland?
John
Standards Co-Founder
Standards Editor

http://www.HistoricHomeWorks.com

oculus
Posts: 66
Joined: May 18th, 2011, 12:15 am

Re: Wood Storm Window, with weatherstrip (draft)

Postby oculus » March 19th, 2012, 3:03 pm

The official type of climate is Marine coastal climate. This is only for western Oregon. Eastern Oregon is a whole different story.
We can easily see 1000 hours of rain throughout the year and only 60 days of truly clear skies. And summer doesn't start here until after July 4th. It rarely gets above 100 in the summer and it rarely snows in the winter. There is very low humidity in the summer. And there is A LOT of mold and mildew.
Amy Harrington McAuley
Oculus Fine Carpentry, Inc.
http://oculuswindow.blogspot.com/
oculuswindow@gmail.com

"Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work"-T.Edison

sschoberg
Posts: 49
Joined: June 9th, 2011, 9:43 pm

Re: Wood Storm Window, with weatherstrip (draft)

Postby sschoberg » March 19th, 2012, 6:00 pm

Whether in a rainy climate or a Northern climate or just about where ever, there will be times during the year or even abnormal rainy years where storm windows will cause or create excessive moisture and if this moisture doesn't have a way to be helped along to dry out then the window as a whole will suffer. So my thoughts on this is the standards for a storm window that is weather stripped needs to have a conveniant means of temperary ventilation, such as vent holes with a cover for those days or weeks where ever the window is. These or something by other means can easily be incorporated during manufacturing. A tight fitting removable or just movable door can be installed to seal these vent holes untill they are needed again.

I am OK with the weather stripping of storm windows as longs as the standard includes what I have described or any other ideas others have used. As far as me writing to add this to the standard. I am not a writer. I don't know of other ways to vent storm windows. Someone else may.

Bob Yapp
Posts: 59
Joined: May 9th, 2011, 8:39 am

Re: Wood Storm Window, with weatherstrip (draft)

Postby Bob Yapp » March 21st, 2012, 6:42 pm

The standard as written requires an 1/8" gap at the bottom of the storm for ventilation and extraction of moisture to the outside. So, Steve is correct the cavity between sashes and storm must have a way for ventilation and moisture extraction. The Summit testing on Wood Window #2 (W-2) was done with two- 1" x 1/8" gaps at the rail. Even with this infiltration, W-2 still exceeded the 2012 IECC for air infiltration with the weatherstripped sashes in front of the storm while still allowing air flow, ventilation and a way for moisture to escape. The unrestored sashes in Wood Window #1 (W-1) had a puttied wood storm snugly fit with no weatherstripping and did not test as well. The cost for the strip/rubber tube weatherstripping (typical door weatherstripping on the top, two sides and three pieces at the bottom rail which created the two ventilation gaps refered to earlier) for W-2's storm was about $13 and it took 15 minutes to install. Cost benefit here is an interesting question. I've rarely weatherstripped storms in the past but may do it selctively depending on the conditions in the community I'm working in.

On an interesting note W-4, David Gibney's weatherstripped sashes with no storm, easily surpassed the IECC for air infiltration. The U-value would be higher without a storm (thermal break etc) and the sashes are not protected by a storm, but very interesting on air infiltration.

sschoberg
Posts: 49
Joined: June 9th, 2011, 9:43 pm

Re: Wood Storm Window, with weatherstrip (draft)

Postby sschoberg » March 21st, 2012, 9:05 pm

Up to this point we have not weather stripped wood storm window either, but with all the comments and discussion I am reconsidering doing so on select storms. I just need to find a weather strip system I like. but I will be adding vent holes in the bottom rails (with a cover) of our fixed glass storms when I do weather strip. Not sure whether I will offer weather stripping on our insert storms as yet. I guess our next big project is to set up a wind testing device. R & D is going to be necessary I think,

sschoberg
Posts: 49
Joined: June 9th, 2011, 9:43 pm

Re: Wood Storm Window, with weatherstrip (draft)

Postby sschoberg » March 22nd, 2012, 8:56 am

I dont remember how David Gibney weather stripped his prime window and would be interested in some pics and description on what he used. I really do think you can weather strip the prime adequately and still achieve full easy functionability. I also think this is where the emphasis should be rather than weather stripping the storms. As more research and testing is done new products will follow and it will be easier to achieve the desired wind resistance on windows. Till then it may be necessary to weather strip wood storm windows.

I do remember seeing the door seal type wood weather strip on one and didn't care for it. Just dont like little strips of stuff tacked on to original windows. I do like Drew's rubber V seal. I also like the hollow vinyl bulb kerfed into the edge or perimeter of the whole sash, leaving 2 small drain or weep holes on the bottom. however sometimes you can see the bulb when looking directly at the perimeter of the storm from the exterior and I do not particularly like that. Hidden is winnin is best for weather stripping for me.

and for the record and even with your experience doing so, I just cannot see relying 2- 1/8" weep holes on the lowest point of the window to be able provide adequate periodic ventilation on various types of windows. I've seen many of weep hole get plugged with dirt and debris after a few year resulting in the loss of any function. In addition they 'll let insects in ( at least till they do get plugged) 100% of the time.

In particular on those 6" storm windows and in special circumtsances they may even need addition vent holes on the top rail. The idea is to creat a dryer air current between the prime and storm periodically. I don't think we can discount the importance of having a way to adequately ventiate when needed on weather stripped storm windows. Key words would be "when needed".

johnleeke
Posts: 375
Joined: April 13th, 2011, 7:34 pm
Full Name: John Leeke
Location: Portland
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Re: Wood Storm Window, with weatherstrip (draft)

Postby johnleeke » August 21st, 2012, 9:12 am

Steve Schoberg writes:
>>As far as a completely different standard for wood storms without weather stripping seems redundant.
The same standard can be used for both with the addition of the added vent holes to be used when storm is weather stripped.<<

These Standards are designed to include more than one way to do any particular task, like add a storm window.

There are so many variables (like climate, design of the window, budget of the project, whether or not energy needs to be saved, etc.) that a single standard would be so complicated that many could not understand it.

For this reason we have designed these standards so they can include more than one standard on a topic like "add a storm window."

Steve, if you want a standard on storms with no weather stripping and with ventilation ports, then you write it up. Click on this link to learn how:
viewtopic.php?f=23&t=150
John
Standards Co-Founder
Standards Editor

http://www.HistoricHomeWorks.com

Bob Yapp
Posts: 59
Joined: May 9th, 2011, 8:39 am

Re: Wood Storm Window, with weatherstrip (draft)

Postby Bob Yapp » August 27th, 2012, 1:14 pm

I prefere the rubber tube in the metal or wood door stripping be EPDM rubber and niot vinyl.


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